I thought I'd post this here instead of the discussions on the 2006 schedule. In regard to the Florida trails sportsman's sections being too tough: since I've returned to trials after about a four year sabbatical, I noticed that the sportsman sections seem to be full of turns with few challenging obstacles. Advanced is way over my head. An uphill 20 inch log crossing is one thing, but a steep down hill with a 20in log is something I'd rather not do . Gadsden seemed to be about right, or maybe a hair too easy obstacle wise. I think that sportsman should be in between intermediate and advanced, rather than so close to intermediate. That's my two cents. Please talk amongst yourselves.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: troy,

Troy,
I agree that many of the events we have held this year have been much easier than STRA events 4 or 5 years ago. Unfortunately, this is a hard problem to resolve. We cannot make a rule that the sections have to be harder. As a promoter myself, I can say for certain that no matter what you have in mind when you lay out a section, you will be surprised with the results on event day. I expected the scores at Whitesburg to be higher. If there had been more rain, it would have been super hard. You just don't know how it will be on event day.

One thing about Sportsman though that I hear complaints from many sportsman riders is an almost total lack of challenging obstacles. The lines seem to rely on tight turns or off camber terrain to get the few points dropped by the winners.

This is prompting many sportsman riders to consider moving up to Advanced. The advanced class is already the largest or close to it. It looks like it is time to revive the Advanced Sportsman class. We dropped it a couple of years back for a lack of participation, but I believe we have at least 6 to 10 riders who would ride it.

For the newcomers, this class would not involve any additional lines. The AS class riders would ride the hardest 4 sportsman lines and the easiest advanced.

Please, please, please, let's not add in another class.

Surely with 6 lines of varying skill levels through the sections we can come to a happy medium.

While I am very familiar with the You won't need another line, just use the easiest of those and the hardest of these argument it still means that we would then have 7 skill level classifications.

I can tell you from a promoters stand point, that as a promoter I sure did not hear from you guys that liked it tough (with the exception of Dan Brown) when I had a very tough trials, and I gaurantee I had to face A BUNCH of unhappy folks. Conversly, when I set to easy at my trials, most were happy and there was the occasional odd comment that I wish it had been harder, the points were too low and if you made a small mistake it cost you dearly.

I very clearly recieved far fewer complaints from the easy trial then I recieved from the Hard trials.

Added on Edit, What I remember about the elimination of the AS (what I was riding at the time) was that we were going to make the Expert level sections easier because that was the same point that we were adding the Champ line there. I also distinctly remember signing up and riding Expert at the first event of the season and wondering out loud to Doug if Jamie and crew had been at the same meeting we were at... (I DNF'd and rode the rest of the trials 2nd loop on as an Advanced rider)

I really believe that with 6 levels of skill / ability lines in the existing in the sections already, we as trialmasters should be able set challenging, not overly dangerous sections to test the skills of the riders. That said, riders need to police themselves and ride a class appropriate for their skill level.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alan Bechard,

I have to agree with Alan on this. And most people don't realize the purpose of the Sportsman class to begin with. Years ago there were 4 classes, novice, intermediate, advance & expert. What was happening was that advance & expert riders were getting older & didn't want to do the big stuff anymore. So the STRA created the Sportsman class for these older riders to go. Otherwise they were going back to the intermediate class. Now, everyone sees the sportsman class as just another step on the ladder. It doesn't need to be turned into this. We have too many classes now. I hope we leave things as they are now as I want a class to ride in when I don't want to do the big stuff anymore.

As for the lines being too hard or soft, maybe you need to move up or down a class. Ride within you abilities, not you ego.

I agree with my dad that we should leave it at 6 lines... and i like it when we have those easier trials becasue you feel like you accomplished something other than crashing your brains out the whole day... and trails is suppose to be a fun sport not something that makes you work every time you do it. It is also easier to explain only 6 lines instead saying AC ride sections so and so on the A line and the rest on the sportsman line... i couldnt remeber that and i really dont want to remeber that. I think that the STRA lines are just right ... and with Charlie always supervising each line stays pretty consitant.
with regards from Germany

Lets see so far we've heard from one sportsman and three advanced ( one whose getting over the hill and planning his decline ).
I never said add lines , just make the ones we have more challenging.
How many times in the last 7 events have I seen the "S" marked out ?
many times to accommodate an easier ( i.e. not an "A" ) route.
again just more in between "I" and "A"

Wow, isn’t this fun. More activity on the STRA board than I have ever seen. Many great points are being presented.

I am with Troy on the Sportsman lines being too easy. I thought Gadsden was more in line with what I expected for the year and I think last season was more similar to Gadsden difficulty. On Sunday at Gadsden I managed a couple of 5s and still ended up 5th. At other events two 5s would definitely put you out of contention. “Bloody good trial I think!”

Harry mentioned the history of the formation of the Sportsman class but I still think making it a stepping-stone to Advanced for the up and comers is a good idea. Obstacles of any size have been few and far between for the Sportsman line this year and certainly there has been no big stuff at all. Next year in Advanced I would prefer to keep my blood in it’s original container but Sp to Adv is a large jump now so I may provide some great Kodak moments.

Ron commented about the surprise on event day of section difficulty, or success of riders at the Carrollton / Whitesburg / Clem event. Being my first event as co-trialsmaster with Ron, I too was surprised. A bit of rain in the Mountains of Carroll County could make a huge difference in the Whooping Creek event sections. Ask Alex, Charlie, Ron, or me about the rising waters the week before the event for a good bike draggin story then you can understand why we were glad no additional showers showed up. Intermediate ended up a little tough due to previous rain and Sportsman a little easy because of fear of more.

I am glad I re-read the other posts before adding this never-ending story. Alan beat me to the punch and I like the idea of easing Expert lines some to allow the chosen few to move up. I know we are all getting older but to the outsider it seems like there are a few in Advanced class that could be competitive in eased Expert sections. Heck, I would ride Expert if I wouldn’t die doing it. I am not dismissing the SA or AS class because it may be a viable option and maybe both ideas could be implemented. More commentary is needed.

Last paragraph! I am finally giving in to the constant heckling, when are you going to Move UP? Although it looks like I am not going to ride as many events (scheduling conflicts) as I did this year I am going to give Advanced a try. In fact I would like to move to Expert some day if I can. So on the note of riding a class appropriate to your skill level, I will come out and say that when (if) I win my first STRA Advanced class event I will then move to Expert!!

Frank

Hey Troy! Welcome back, I was wondering where you went?
Since I've only riden 2 events this year (still
in the Int. class), I always check the scores in
the Sportsdman class. Also in the 2 events
I rode, I check out the Sportsman lines and think "could I safely ride that line?"
I remember riding several events in the Sportsman class last year. Each event was not consistant. Most sections were over my head? Or was it just "in my Head?" Not riding much really takes my confidance away!
Since I won the last Int. event I rode, I feel
that I should go up to the Sportsman class, but
that's next year? Next year I might not even get a chance to ride?
Ok, the scores of the Sportsman lines seem to be
in line with the talent riding that class?
If the top 5 were cleaning or dropping less that
10 points I would think the lines were too easy?
Maybe the lower Sportsman riders dropping points
in the 80's or 90's should have stayed in the Int. class? But I think the Int. sections are too easy,,,,,,,,,,,,,Again, Troy welcome back
and for bringing up a never ending question about "too easy/too hard"!!!
How about "there's too many splits!" I get lost!!! I hate that,,,,,,,,,,

Hmmmmm Troy, I guess you and I just look at things really differently.

I saw 4 experienced trialsmasters answer your question........ And discuss the valid points that you brought up, and present some options as to how to address the issue....

Must just be a perspective thing.

I have to agree with Troy, there should be more obstacles in sportsman and intermediate classes.Though i haven't rode any events in 1.5 years, when i did attend the lines were alittle boring. I started riding trials back in the 80's, i was a novice then and the lines were about the same as the intermediate lines are today. I think a 50/50 blend of turns and obstacles would be better. They don't have to be killer obstacles. I would rather take a point riding over something than just on a turn.
Rick Caron SCTC

Troy,
It sounds to me like you may be a great candidate for moving up a class. If you find the obstacles in your class to be consistently boring (= unchallenging), then it is a strong possibility that your skill level has exceeded that of your peers, or at least, you enjoy riding bigger stuff than those of your peers.

Having said that, moving up to the higher classes means that you will be challenged with obstacles that are larger and closer together, and therefore you'll have to decide if you are capable of safely riding each section. This is one of the changes between riding lower classes and upper classes in trials.

Performing a personal skill/risk assessment of every section is the reality and norm for every rider in the Advanced/Expert/Champ sections. If we think we can't ride the section, we punch out and happily take our five, knowing that our bike and body are at least safe for the sections we are capable of riding. I can tell you by experience that this is the unwritten policy of every Expert and new-Champ rider. And by the way, this is way-funner than being so bored in a section that you're thinking "can I ride this one-handed and still clean it?" or "can I wheelie through this entire section and still clean it?"

Asking promoters to so fine-tune the section difficulty more to your present liking is probably an exercise in futility, unless you can organize your class riders' preferences into a definable quorum to state precisely the limits of both ease and difficulty of your classes' sections. But even then, the vareity of terrain and the variety of promoters around the multi-state STRA club, and changes in weather virtually ensure uneven competitive conditions across events. We all know and expect that some events will be tougher and others easier- but it will be the same for all riders, that day. That's just trials.

In my opinion, your time might be better spent out riding and having fun, sharpening your throttle control, brake control, clutch control, balance, and obstacle techniques to get you ready for the next fun class. Go seek out one or two higher-class riders and ask them to help you improve, and then don't be ashamed to turn in a score of 135 for the day because you punched out of the sections that were too scary...this happens all the time (look at the Champ scores in Gadsden). The experienced riders have all been there (and eaten humble-pie) and frankly appreciate the kahoonas a new rider shows by being willing to attempt stuff of greater difficulty and risk.

By the way, another unwritten policy of those who compete in the higher classes is that we help each other out in the scary stuff: we're not ashamed to ask each other to spot for us on obstacles that give us the willies, or on obstacles that we're confident we can do, but a little mistake may cost us a big crash. So, if you chose to move up, know that you'll be moving into classes that are very willing to help you stay safe.

Peace out,
Bill

Well said Bill!

I know it's a huge jump between Novice and Intermediate. Dwight said it's a big jump to Sportsman, Frank said it's a big jump to Advanced, Randy said it's a big jump to expert........ I'm guessing the Trialsmasters and Charlie are doing an exceptional job.

That being said, I've been blessed enough to the do most of the awards this year for the STRA so personally I think we should add about 20 more classes.

I think Bill says it well. And really as it is now the Sportsman lines are set/reviewed by our Safety Stewart(ist). To sum it up short & sweet, if Charlie doesn't want to ride it, it comes out.

And in Gadsden, Charlie was explaining to me that there is a rider dam @ the Advance class. His thoughts were to ease up on the upper lines to let people move up. One of those, "you should be riding expert" type things. As it is now, Harry ain't riding no expert lines. The Advance class is growing now as several experts don't want to do the big stuff. Mark S, Gordon B, Vaugn have all dropped back & I heard something to the effect that Brock was also considering it. So, do we want a Safety Steward for the upper lines? This may be the only way to change things. As I see it the Advance class today has become the Sportsman class of old.

This is a popular subject, and one that I have a particular interest in, so here comes my two-cents worth. Stipulating to the fact that each rider has individual preferences, I think that there’s considerable room for enhancing the Sportsman Class’ section difficulty. This, without approaching the skill level needed to be completive in the advanced class. To me, it’s not a question of there being too few ‘Obstacles” in the average sportsman section, as it is a case of there being hardly any obstacles at all. Most sections seem to consist of a series of camber turns, tight switchbacks, and loose stones. Now, do these elements make a section difficult? Well, (and my scores will attest) yes, they can result in the accumulation of dabs. But I think it’s way too much of the same thing and I personally would like to see some of the advanced –type stuff thrown into the mix. And as Bill suggests is the case in the upper classes, maybe just not coming as close together. Too many points are given away because of mental mistakes (at least in my case) and not enough because of elements put in the way of the ride. In a word, the sections in the Sportsman class are typically boring and not all that much different from the ones laid out for the intermediate rider. The reality is that the advanced class is too tough for me, but more of what makes it so needs too be incorporated into the class that immediately precedes it.

Hello Mickey.....its been a long time and I hope to see you at a trial soon!

Alan..... you are correct ,we do see thing differently

rick...get back to a trial near you!!!


bill .. I just may do that. At the last trial before I went MIA I rode advanced ( and BEAT Steve Matarko ! ).
I seem to remember punching through at LEAST one time ( if not more )


Harry... Bill said to ride with someone" who is one or two classes "above you.......well.....I guess you'll have to do

Happy Thanksgiving too all!

I just hope I can ride more than 2 events next year! Sure we're all looking to watching the World
riders at TTC.

The main difference I noticed in Int. and Sportsman lately was that the Sportsman line is longer. The lay of the land makes for difficult
trials layout for all classes! I'll try Sportsman again,,,,I know how to take a "5" and punch out.

quote:

Originally posted by Jessie Wallace:
I think that there’s considerable room for enhancing the Sportsman Class’ section difficulty. This, without approaching the skill level needed to be completive in the advanced class. To me, it’s not a question of there being too few ‘Obstacles” in the average sportsman section, as it is a case of there being hardly any obstacles at all. Most sections seem to consist of a series of camber turns, tight switchbacks, and loose stones. Now, do these elements make a section difficult? Well, (and my scores will attest) yes, they can result in the accumulation of dabs. But I think it’s way too much of the same thing and I personally would like to see some of the advanced –type stuff thrown into the mix. And as Bill suggests is the case in the upper classes, maybe just not coming as close together. Too many points are given away because of mental mistakes (at least in my case) and not enough because of elements put in the way of the ride. In a word, the sections in the Sportsman class are typically boring and not all that much different from the ones laid out for the intermediate rider. The reality is that the advanced class is too tough for me, but more of what makes it so needs too be incorporated into the class that immediately precedes it.

Well said!!!

What criteria does an event promoter use to decide what constitutes a Sportsman-level line vs. an Intermediate or Advanced-level line?

Secondly, what, if anything, does our STRA rulebook specify about the difficulty level of a Sportsman section? If the rulebook does specify a difficulty level, then maybe the real question is whether this specification is being followed.


Bill

The rulebook is a little hazy, and as you are well aware, and stated in your previous post, it can be a tough line too hit.

There are some hints there though, the Advanced line should be at the level of national Sportsman sections. Now while this is by no means an absolute standard to go by, it does give us some hints as promoters.

As Harry referenced, as you read the rules, you can see that sportsman was intended to be a class that folks "hung out in" Somewhere for the experienced riders to safely enjoy the sport while not getting banged up.

Speaking from my experience, I try and set Advanced lines that will not get an experienced rider hurt if he has a failure. Good places to land, somewhere to catch yourself etc.

For the sportsman lines, I usually try and take the "hits" out of the sections, concentrating on the technical, off camber, weavy stuff that Jessie is referring too. Many of the sportsman riders do not want "hits" in their sections, and I will state again from experience, that when you put them in, you have far more unhappy, disgruntled, vociforous people telling you that you do not have a clue how to set a section compared to when you make it too easy.

The promoters can make the sportsman line harder, but they run the risk of loosing riders there as well, and they can potentially end up with someone hurt, and a larger gap between INT and Sportsman.

It is a tough balancing act to be out there setting those sections, and weighing in what the weather will be like, and the people that will show, etc. etc.

I will put forward though, that all the promoters I know, would be happy for you to come out prior to the event and lend a hand setting the level of difficulty in those sections, and I am sure that you are welcome to ride along with Charlie and help as he does the sporting steward duties (assuming he will do it again next year, which I truly hope) and that way you have a chance to put some very direct and valued input into those sections.

As a couple of side notes, Frank and I had this conversation last Saturday, about how difficult it was to pick the lines while setting the events. I can distinctly remember setting the lines a couple of years ago and Charlie backing them down markedly, and several riders coming up telling me I was out to kill them.

Alan,
This is helpful.

Can you quote for us the exact STRA rulebook verbage for the Sportsman line and the Advanced line?

Charilie Roberts: if you happen to be reading this thread, can you describe the criteria you use to delete or add obstacles or turns to a Sportsman section?

Thanks-
Bill